Who should become a bird breeder

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by Siobhan on Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:27 am

This is turning into he said she said. But for the record, the phrase "a Hobbiest breeder is hurting a bird more than helping it out" was written by Mario aka Ziggy in his second post on this topic. This was not a response to any post by me.

And for the record I, for one, am not "in a tiffy". I asked an honest question to what I thought was a rather dramatic statement telling amateurs to stay away from breeding. I believe that when posting a topic as informative as this thread is, questioning is good. My question was in no way intended to be negative. I was merely seeking clarification and perhaps some healthy debate.
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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:24 pm

OK lets get this straight I never said hobbiest in my posts it was asked by Siobhan. I simply used the term that was asked. Just like I said about the word PRO. I used the words GOOD QUALITY BREEDER. I think this is getting out of hand. The bottom line is do the research before you breed birds period. There is no reason to get everyone in a tiffy over it. The post is here to read and lets just take it for what it is.

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by BustersMom on Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:08 pm

Mario,

I think the problem you're running into here is that you keep saying "hobbyist" instead of "inexperienced". I have been a hobby breeder for at least 25 years, and yes, I know the answer to all those questions.

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:42 pm

Hello,

You just answered you own question Siobhan. Once they have done there homework. A lot of hobbiest breeders or beginers do not do ALL the right homework. I will ask you would a hobbiest know what to do in a case like egg bound hens? what is the ideal age to retire a hen from breeding? how many times will a hen bare eggs before it has become over bred? There are many other questions also. Thats my point that a breeder that does not do his/her homework it can be more harm to a bird then a help. That was the whole reason that I started this post, for people to understand that this is not like breeding domestic animals such as dogs and cats. There is so much to learn before you get involved in the breeding end of it. You asked the question about a hobbiest and a pro I never used those terms in the post. I was answering you question about what the difference was between the two. A hobbiest will have more time to socialize a baby then a large breeder would. There are so many different things that a hobbiest can do that a large breeder can do, just because of the amount of babies. There is nothing bad about being either a hobbiest or a large breeder the main point is to do all the nessasary research before you get involved in breeding.

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by Siobhan on Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:47 pm

ziggy wrote:
I am involved with 2 rescues here in the Tampa area an I see it all the time that a hobbiest breeder is hurting a bird more then helping it out. Breeding is a very serious business and needs to be done right so we do not see so many birds in shelters and rescues because they were misunderstood.

I was actually commenting on your second post where I read it as hobbiest breeders hurt birds more than help them. And I fail to see how that could be, once they have done their homework and gained the knowledge BEFORE getting the breeder birds.
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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by BustersMom on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:33 am

I read the first post and commented on how well it was written. I must have misunderstood your subsequent posts. My mistake. Sorry. Embarassed

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:56 am

Hello,

I think that this is getting off topic now. You need to read the post again and see what I was saying. I never used the words hobbiest or pro in the post. The question was asked what is the difference between the two. I would like to know how we got to this point. There is no such thing as a PRO breeder. I stated a QUALITY breeder in the post. A pro would not fit what you are asking. The word should be quality as I stated. A hobbiest if you read the response that I posted it clearly states that they do it as a second source of income. When I said GIVE I ment that a hobbiest will sell them to people such as friends and family. for example. A breeding farm that has many different spieces are in it for the large money as a business. My point here is that you can be a hobbiest breeder and make some extra money at times. A business has over head that we do not. We do it from our homes and have fun with it. One other thing that I would like to address is that you never heard me say at any point that any one here or abroad should not try to breed, but to know what it takes to be a breeder. We all love birds we can all agree on that. I never said that anybody that does breeding does not love the birds, and puts there time into it to make a good baby. Please reread the first post and see what the point is for this tread. I see it all the time that a baby dies or a breeding pair whinds up in a rescue because it was misunderstood. There are so many birds in rescues that it gets to me that some people think they can become a breeder. It is rather easy to get a pair and have them breed and the person has no idea what to do from that point forward.


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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by BustersMom on Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:52 pm

Mario,

I don't want to cause "waves" either, but I don't see what you are getting at. I breed as a "hobby", have only a limited amount of pairs, and I am just fine with that. But, I don't give my birds away to friends and family. I make a little money, but not as much as the "pro" breeders by any means. So does that mean I shouldn't be a breeder? I think not. I put love into each baby I sell and I have the time to do it, which makes me and the buyer happy.

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by ziggy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:26 pm

Hello,

To answer your question about a pro and a hobbiest it is really easy to see the difference. A hobbiest will only breed for that reason only as a hobbie. They will give the birds to friends and family members. A pro will have a huge breeding farm with literally thousands of birds and the only thing they are in the business is to make as much money as possible. Do the numbers and see what I am talking about. Lets look at Cockateils. I have a friend that has over 200 breeding pairs. Each pair will give then on average 3 clutchs a year of 3 to 5 eggs. thats a huge amount of babies each year. At 3 eggs that make it that comes out to 1800 babies a year. 1800 babies at 50.00 per baby is 90,000.00 per year. So the difference is in the numbers. A hobbiest will not do it as a business but as a hobby only. A pro will do it for the money, and the money comes from the number of eggs you get from the breeders. Another thing is that a pro breeder will have all the connections on wholesalers to sell his babies at wholesale prices. A hobbiest will not have the capability to fill the orders to the wholsalers.

I hope you can see what I am getting at. Yes most breeders start as a hobbiest until he/she gets the numbers up and the stock to make the money. A pro can not hold a regular job because he/she will have a FULL TIME JOB contending to the babies. A hobbies will have a regular job and do it as a second income at times.

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by Siobhan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:04 pm

I completely understand what you are saying about hobbyist bird breeders. But surely a person who truly loves birds would be a better breeder than one who is in it for the money? And surely someone who only has one or 2 breeding pairs of any type of bird, can give the babies more love and attention, resulting in better socialised birds, than someone who has many breeding pairs?

Once the homework is done, and the knowledge is gained properly before buying the breeders I personally think that a "hobbyist" breeder can be as successful if not more so than the so called "Professional" breeder.

Out of curiosity, how does Joe Bloggs become a "professional" if not by starting as a "hobbyist"?
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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by Ronda on Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:04 pm

Oh I am sure it will help others out Mario and by no means did I think it was pointed at me, just stating my two cents Very Happy

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:38 pm

Hello,

Thank you for the kind words.

Ronda this was not posted for you to think that I was trying to point you out about breeding. This is for everyone that thinks it is a easy task to breed birds. I want everyone to know that it is not as easy as some would think it is. A GOOD breeder will be put in a seperate catagory than someone that has 2 birds and wants to have babies. I would not try to make any waves with members but on some things such as breeding it hits me and I have to make it known that it takes a lot of time and effert for not a great pay check in the end. I am involved with 2 rescues here in the Tampa area an I see it all the time that a hobbiest breeder is hurting a bird more then helping it out. Breeding is a very serious business and needs to be done right so we do not see so many birds in shelters and rescues because they were misunderstood. I hope that this helps out everyone that wants to become a breeder.


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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by Ronda on Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:47 pm

Yes very well put Mario. That's why I am asking a way lol. I am in no hurry and by no means did I mean business, I should have said more of a hobby. I am an at home mom and just love birds, well you all know that lol. And the Quaker for me is something I am very familiar with being we have owned one for 9 years and she is 12 years old. I didn't want to start out with a big bird I wanted to learn with what I knew about first, maybe down the line I will get bigger than a Quaker, but for now I am still doing my research and have been for almost a year now and still don't have everything lol. But I agree don't get into this for something you think you can make a bunch of money at, cause from my understanding it's just like our kids, we put tons and tons of time into them and we can't sell them lmao. But we get the satisfaction of seeing them grow up right and making something out of themselves. So very well put Mario!

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Re: Who should become a bird breeder

Post by BustersMom on Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:48 am

Very well said, Mario!

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Who should become a bird breeder

Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:43 am

Hello Friends and fellow members,

I think that a tread needs to be posted on Who should become or be a breeder.

I have been in the bird community for many many years and I have seen a lot of different situations that birds being breed for the wrong and some what right reasons. I always tell friends, customers, forum members, family, and people in general that a bird breeder is a special type of person. I always tell them that to be a GOOD QUALITY breeder you need to start with birds that you have done all the research on. You need to know what species are good for you and for the customers. First- If you have a set of Macaws that you are looking at to buy for an investment you need to do all the research first then make the commitment to get the birds. There are many people that buy so called PROVEN BONDED PAIRS and ask many questions after the fact of them buying the birds. This is the wrong thing to do, you need to do all the research FIRST and then make the move to get started. A good rule of thumb is that if its to good to be true then it is. I sell at many shows and I see so much bad breeding that it makes me want to cry. Birds are not like dogs and cats that you buy a male and female and you will get a litter of pups. Birds are much different. You need to get a bonded proven pair and let time take its course. If the birds want to breed then they will. There is NO GAURANTEE that a bird will be a good breeder. This goes back to the whole talking thing there is no guarantee that a bird will talk. If you are lucky the birds will breed. There are many variables to make a bird breed. You need to know what the breeding season is, what type of breeding box to have, what type of bedding for the box, what is the birds attitudes toward each other, is the bird over breed, is the bird sexually mature, are the breeders to old to breed, should a pet become a breeder, can a breeding pair become pets etc. You see there are many things that need to be researched before you make the investment or the commitment. Have all of your questions asked and have a good plan to get started before you go ahead with it. What about what type of cages should I have for a breeding pair. Do you know about flights for the birds. Can I still hold the breeders? What type of birds are flock members and what type of birds have one mate for life? These are many questions that I get asked on a regular basis. Now that we got some of the bird related questions lets move on to the money end of it.

I tell people all the time if you are going to try to do this for the money you are in it for all the wrong reasons. Yes as a breeder you mind set like any business is to make money. There is money to be made but not what you expect it to be. Lets look at this for a moment. You have a breeding pair of lets say Cockatoos, you first need to purchase the breeders. You need to buy a cage, a flight, food, a nesting box, fresh fruit and veggies etc. This is before you have even seen one egg. Now lets look at the vet bills you will have thats another ball of wax. Back to the birds. Now you have lets say 3500.00 dollars invested in your first pair of breeders. Now you have to wait till the birds are ready to breed. Every month that goes by it costs you money to maintain the breeders. So if a pair did not breed this season you need to wait till next season right. Lets say it costs you on average 50.00 per month for food and other things needed. you have another 600.00 added to your cost now you are up to 4100.00. you still have not seen a egg yet. Wow one day you see a egg you get excited. A normal clutch will give you 3 eggs. If you are lucky all 3 eggs are fertile and hatch. Now you have 3 babies to start on the formula. Before they are weaned each baby will need formula for 4 months on average. Here we go again with more cost. Lets say you spend 50.00 a month on the babies. Now you are up to 100.00 per month for food costs. Lets add the 400.00 to your costs. Now we are at 4500.00 but we have 3 babies to sell. The babies are fully weaned and you have buyers for them. At 1200.00 per baby you have 3600.00 in sales. We had 4500.00 in cost we have lost 900.00 for the first clutch. Next year the birds will turn a profit because your investment birds are going to be paid off by then. Now you are going to see that your clutch will produse only about 500.00 each egg. These are only hypothetical numbers. So as you can see there is not much money involved in making a profit. Your time is worth something also. So my point here is if you think that you can get rich off of birds you are sadly misled. If you do it for the love of the birds then you are doing it right. The money is peanuts in the big picture. But please do all the necessary research first before making the wrong choice. This is only my opinion on this but like I have said many times before think before you get into the breeding end the bird world.

All of us here are bird lovers obviously or we would not be part of a BIRD forum. We can all have dreams I have them as well as all of you but PLEASE make the right choices before you get in to this type of business. There is to many risks to chance it. So in the big picture do the research, make the right choices, and do it for the love and not the profit.


Thanks Mario
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